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scar1et_f1re
Platinum Boarder
Posts:4900
R U Kind?

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#179291 2 years, 3 months ago
And ps, personally I saw every MSG show in '88 (9 including the benefit) plus every MSG show in '91. But I was only able to catch one Beacon show.

I will say I felt like we owned MSG, I learned every hidden stairway, etc and the guards let us dance. At my one Beacon show I got thrown off off the third level and almost thrown out of the show for trying to dance in the aisles. So in that respect, I had a better time at the MSG shows. But musically, even with Jerry breaking out the la bamba's and Brent with his Good Golly Miss Molly's etc, nothing touched me like the Brokedown Palace Furhtur played at the Beacon on April 18, 2012. Hearing it live brought me to tears like few other GD / Furthur songs have.

As a reminder it was Brent on Keyboards back then, and no backup singers, so it's a different sound today. Plus at the Beacon Bobby and Phil had just switched sides (assuming that effects anything). I personally like that Furthur is a bit jazzier than the GD. It reminds me of the MSG / Nassau Coliseum shows where Bradford sat in (like on the CD without a net).
FFF! Family is Forever!!!

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And let others do for you
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fourwnds
Senior Boarder
Posts:424

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#179471 2 years, 3 months ago
kevin wrote:
not sure wrote:
First off, i don't care what you think about me. Lets get that out in the open right now.
I didn't come here to "get a reaction" or to start shit, i just put my opinion out there like everyone else. Grow up. Yea yea i'm a bit harsh, maybe john and the rest of you should grow some thicker skin.
To answer the question "would you rather them just quit?" Answer: Yes. I would. I liked ratdog, and phil & friends better.
Maybe i just have the luck of catching furthur on off nights? I don't know. They don't do it for me.
So say what you want about me but just remember, i'm just being a critic and typing my opinion. Iam not here trying to change your mind, don;t try and change mine.
If you are going to try and insult me then put a lot of thought into the words you choose, i get paid to argue and win so proceed with caution.


dude, I'm sure of one thing, you are an idiot with an idiotic opinion, you do realize the dead's music was constructed in a way to allow jerry to "shine" in his own way? (think estimated prophet e.g.), you do realize bob and phil are keeping the good vibes going that they started 40 years ago ? you do realize ratdog was better than nothing, but totally sucked compared to furthur, right?
go hate somewhere else, this board is for spreading the love and good vibes furthur brings, not your "fake jerry" bs
ps, I saw over 80 GD shows from 83-95, over 20 JGB shows and some weir projects also
"I get paid to argue and win", how's that law degree working for ya, ambulance chaser ??
rebuttal ?

Not Sure- Wow. Keep trying is all I can say-like others have said-the magic is there. To each his own though but you don't have to be an asshole about it man and shit all over John on a FANsite. BTW I saw DSO 2 months ago and did not like it, didn't feel it at all but I ain't going to slam them this shit can be so subjective to mood, set and setting. You must have wondered at different times during your 250 shows(?) if the inevitable lackluster show(s) was a sign the the good old GD were outta gas, or you or they were burned out, or whatever any myriad of things would lead to an unsatisfactory conclusion. I remember listening to Jerry(the interview before the latest meet-up @movies I think it was-talk about wanting to kill Phil because he was ruining it, fuckin up, Jerry was pissed but later when he played it back he realised it was HIS headspace, the music was good and Phil was not the problem at all.

Kevin, I would have agreed with you on your opinion about Ratdog after I recently listened to the 98 show from slims (yawn-barely any lead guitar-luv the horns though) but I kept digging around mainly cause illuminaughty is so passionate and from what I saw at TRI, but anyway last night and today has been all about,
archive.org/details/ratdog2007-07-24.dpa-4channelmix.flac16
I don't know if it was the peculiar energy I've read about at RedRocks or what but for me this show is the cat's pajamas, great mix of blues, jazz, horns, lead guitar, Bobbys voice, great music by any standard I'd say. Makes me sad on what I potentially missed out on every year when I thought Ratdog was just out-there being what I, wrongfully am happy to find-at least so far, thought was probably GDlite.
kevin
Platinum Boarder
Posts:3365

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#179509 2 years, 3 months ago
^^^^^ all music is subjective, I caught ratdog at least a dozen times, so obviously I do appreciate their style of music, just feel Furthur is far and away the best project post-jerry (although Phil and friends are also awesome), my tone was more a reaction to "not sure" than a firm opinion on ratdog (although them not performing in 3 years might be an indication of that project's status)
-- smell every flower --
Last Edit: 2 years, 3 months ago by kevin.
Skeeto111
Junior Boarder
Posts:63

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#180663 2 years, 3 months ago
I would say on their off nights or "off songs" furthur can be very slow and lethargic. However, I would say that only accounts for at most 10 percent of the songs they play.

At Chicago a couple weeks ago they didn't have a single "off" song. Everything was played very well and on point, even when things got a little crazy. There was no "spacey comb-over" trying to mask bad playing, they were hot and ON FIRE.

NotSure it's very possible you could've caught a couple of their slower shows, especially if it was closer to when they started. Point is that they are on fire now, and one should not miss them if they have the opportunity to see them play.
dannyprime
Junior Boarder
Posts:25

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#181671 2 years, 2 months ago
Just to beat this dead horse (pardon the pun) a little furthur (again, pardon the pun) I have a few more points. Not sure has definitely made a stir here, nice job buddy!

Fake jerry issue, was keith fake pigpen, or brent for that matter, or bruce hornsby. No these people were great musicians and definitely not fake replacements of one another but unique representations of themselves.

obviously jerry is a different enchilada and one friend commented that it may be the audience members displeased with furthur are not hearing what they would expect to hear if jerry was handling it. but i think on the whole issue is difficult to handle but if you cant hear and witness the beauty of this band out on the highway continuing to high step into town, then it must just be a case of the new ones come in as the old ones go
Blues_Power
Senior Boarder
Posts:432
in the world, but not of the world

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#182193 2 years, 2 months ago
first of all, a very well written piece and a fun academic excercise. thanks for sharing.

before i offer my brief thoughts on the Jerry vs. JK issue, i really liked the part of the article that discussed the "Roman copy". that was a great comparison to illustrate why a lot of people enjoy Furthur shows... because they still love the music and the original is not currently available to play for us on this earth. so as a result we celebrate the music through the copy that's available to us, although there are pieces of the original still in the equation (Phil and Bobby).

the first time i saw Furthur was on 06/03/11. my last GD show was in October of 1994 (last Jerry show was in 1995) and i did not see anything GD-related in between (no Ratdog, no Phil & Friends, no Other Ones or the Dead... NOTHING). i thought "what's the point, Jerry's gone, why do i want to go see anything GD-related without Jerry"? i was finally convinced to give Furthur a shot and went to see them at Shoreline. IT WAS WEIRD!!!! i really didn't know what to do at first. i thought "the music sounds good, it's cool to be experiencing live GD music again, and Phil and Bobby are up there". but my brain had a hard time processing what i was seeing versus what i was hearing. i decided there was no point in pondering too extensively while the show was happening, so i tried to forget that Jerry was not up there. i also told myself "this is NOT the Grateful Dead and don't try to pretend that it is... just have fun". so then i wanted to start dancing, but i immediately felt guilty. that was also very weird. i felt guilty for enjoying Grateful Dead music that was not being played by Jerry Garcia. for a few moments it felt like i was cheating on Jerry, somewhat disrespecting his memory for even thinking about enjoying a Furthur concert. it took me a few more minutes (ok, a whole set) to give myself permission to have fun. by the 2nd set i was feeling a little more relaxed, and was dancing and having fun (but it still felt weird). it took some time to embrace "the copy", but i eventually concluded that it was OK after all because i was paying homage to the music that i love so much.

since that 1st Furthur show i have seen the band a number of times and respect what they do. Phil and Bobby are definitely giving it all they got, and i think Jerry would approve. i've also come to respect and enjoy JK's playing, and i think he's doing a good job. does he (or has he ever) out-Jerry'd Jerry? definitely not, but that's OK. the more Furthur shows that i see the less i compare JK to Jerry. if you think of Furthur as the "new version of the GD" you're gonna be horribly disappointed. while they play GD songs, and their shows are in the same basic format (sans drums/space), Furthur is it's own band with a couple of original member of the GD. thinking of the band in these terms i'm able to enjoy the shows quite a bit. i'm not going to see Furthur to replicate the GD experience; i'm going to celebrate the music, and to see Phil and Bobby. what fun!

as for the comparison of the 1991 MSG run to the 2012 Beacon run, it's much more interesting to discuss how the GD in 1991 compare to Furthur in 2012 (without specifically focusing on Jerry versus JK). i did not see any of the MSG shows in 1991, but i did see over 20 shows in 1991. i also saw most of the Beacon run in 2012, so i feel somewhat qualified to comment. short answer, the GD in 1991 blow Furthur away (but that doesn't mean that the 2012 Beacon run wasn't good).

1991 was the last good year for the GD (IMO). Brent's loss in 1990 was a crushing blow to the band, but they rebounded strongly primarily because of Bruce Hornsly. Jerry LOVED playing with Bruce and it was obvious every night i saw them play together. Bruce was the best thing that could have happened to Jerry (and the Grateful Dead) after Brent's death, and for a breif time (even despite the drug problems) Jerry was very engaged most nights. he was having fun and he felt challenged. Bruce made the fat man work! and the fat man freakin' rocked with Bruce. while the band still had some good shows here and netween 1992 and 1995, Jerry lost that spark after Bruce left. it was a slow, steady and very sad decline over those last three years.

fast forward to Furthur in 2012 and there are some huge and obvious differences.

- TEMPO: as mentioned in the blog article, Furthur has slowed the tempo on many songs compard to 1991. it's a bit like the GD in 1976 (which is not one of my favorite years for ther GD). it would be interesting to compare the tempo of a song such as the Music Never Stopped in 1976 versus the Furthur tempo in 2012. i'll bet it's pretty close. i wish Furthur would speed up the tempo to be more in line with 1991 because i think the songs really shine and have a lot more snap at a slightly faster tempo.

- Drums/Space: Furthur has bagged drums and space, which for my taste is a very good thing. i did not dislike drums and space (and some nights it was really good!), but it took up a lot of time during 2nd sets and i would have rather heard more songs and more jamming.

- Song Selection: Furthur does songs that i never would have seen the GD do. pretty much everything in the GD song book is in play. still can't figure out why Bobby doesn't break out Lazy Lighning, but that's a whole separate discussion. Viola Lee, Born Cross-Eyed, Doin that Rag, the Eleven, King Solomon's Marbles, Easy Wind, Golden Road, etc. i love the fact that Furthur plays these songs and it's the main reason why i love going to see Furthur. it's old, but it's new. it's the same, but it's different.

given the choice i'd prefer that Jerry was still at the helm, but he's not. there are many ways to honor his memory and to keep the music alive. i respect those that cannot or will not embrace the Furthur experience, but i'm grateful that i have had the opportunity to take part in it.
We will all be together for ever and ever when we make it to the promised land
Last Edit: 2 years, 2 months ago by Blues_Power.
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DarrylStingley
Junior Boarder
Posts:86

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#185433 2 years, 2 months ago
I saw about 15 Dead shows from 1979-1995, 2-3 Jerry shows during that time and 2 Bobby and the Midnights shows.

I've seen Rat Dog about 5 times and Furthur about 15 times.

I've been listending to the Dead and Furthur and Rat Dog and other derivations regularly since 1979. There's no other music that I listen to regularly, though I do like other music.

So now that you know a bit about me, my opinion is that those who crap on JK or Furthur are pretentious jack offs. Sure, Jerry Garcia is one of a kind, and JK is not Jerry. But dammit, this Furthur band is terrific, and there are times when they are cleaner and crisper and yes, even better, than the Dead.

But what's the point about even talking about it or lamenting that Furthur or JK aint the Dead? Jerry is dead. We all loved the hell out of him but nothing's gonna bring him back. We have JK now, and why not totally enjoy him and dispense with the "I'm a good old days guy" talk?

I don't get it. Enjoy the ride!

Oh, nice article. Thanks for that.
Last Edit: 2 years, 2 months ago by DarrylStingley.
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Sharyn60
Fresh Boarder
Posts:5

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#188888 2 years, 2 months ago
I agree. Give John a break. He does a terrific job & his voice, is circa early 70's Jerry. Love it.
Also, there are more than one Dead cover band. Does that make them all rip offs? Its a free world and everyone is entitled to make a living....don't go see the band if you don't like what they're doing..its a choice, you know?
Sharyn60
Fresh Boarder
Posts:5

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#188893 2 years, 2 months ago
Ed, I'm still reading this analysis, but so far, I think its right on the money! and very fascinating. I want to speak to you!
Sharyn60
Fresh Boarder
Posts:5

Re: Furthur's Beacon Run vs the Dead's MSG Run

#188896 2 years, 2 months ago
One final comment, the thing that make Furthur so much fun is the entire cast. Joe on the drums (sounding like 2 in the Terrapin Suite), Sunshine and Jeff on the vocals blowing us away, Jeff just ripping us apart with one of his emotional solos..........or John rippin up a classic of course along with my 2 favorite old timers Bob and Phil.


I absolutely agree w you, Griff! Just love Joe, Jeff, and the vocalists!! along w John, Bobby & Phil
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